Loosing interest in hubby

Mark8025t, yes, my bf and I have friends together - mainly couples we hang out with once in a while. Nothing earth-shattering, although we once went on a mini-vacation for 3-4 days with a group of them. They know us as a "couple", and I suppose it would never occur to them to wonder whether I'm married or not. Some of them do seem a bit suspicious of me since I'm much younger and he's recently divorced...I'm sure more than one of them has "warned" him about getting involved with someone like me, which is kind of funny when you think of it.

Asehpe, glad you took no offense. I guess my take on manipulation comes from a deep respect I have for responsibility. I believe nobody manipulates me unless I first offer my "permission"...a la Emermister's Self Reliance. Perhaps I am too cold, but whenever I feel manipulated, I look inwards and I always find a spot where I willingly gave the power to manipulate me to someone else.

ValGal, your attitude looks very healthy. In my case, I've had some really bad experiences with manipulative people -- the kind who isn't really interested in your consent, they simply "know what's best". I hated that. Looking at myself, however, I saw the potential for the same behavior; and I decided to avoid it. I admit I may sometimes exaggerate in the opposite direction...

I've also had a couple of conversations with my wife that made me raise my eyebrows once or twice. I'm beginning to harbor some very timid hopes...

All the best,

Asehpe

Hi all,

Back from the land of sadness. I am feeling a little lost at the moment since with the passing of my lady I am now parentless. It is amazing to me that at my age with my parents now gone that I could feel like a little kid again and wonder how I am going to get along. Seems kind of strange i guess. ValGal the more I read your posts the more i wish I could meet you. I am developing a great respect and admiration for you. You truly seem to be an honest and caring permister who is caught up in a situation and trying to deal with it with openess, caring and self reflection. I hope everything works out and in the end you end up very happy. asehpe, I had to kind of chuckle at your bad experiences with manipulative people as sometimes I feel that is what my job is all about except when I am good it is trying to get people to self manipulate! Heres hoping that everything works out for you.

Tom7766
Tom anderson

Tom,

glad to have you back! My last grandlady passed away two years ago (at the age of 98), and I also suddenly felt odd. You know it's going to happen, you aren't surprised, you're prepared for it, you've thought about what you'll do, and yet you're surprised by your emotion. It never is what you had thought it would be.

I agree about ValGal -- like I said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Now that you're back, I think I'll send you an e-mail to your address. In case you know someone in your specialty in the Netherlands...

Asehpe

Asehpe,

Feel free to email and I will see what I can do.
Tom anderson

Tom, thanks for the supportive words...I think you have it about right. I often feel like an innocent young wandering around a life I might not quite understand, but trying to figure it out as I go without hurting anyone along the way.

For everyone else, this weekend was my first with both my guys in one place at the same time, and I'm cautiously optimistic at the results.

I had my bf come over Friday after work, and the three of us sat and had a long, very frank talk about where we all are with things and what our desires might be. Okay, I was a little militant about it...I felt like I needed to twist some arms to get the discussion going (not to mention priming the pump with a little holy water!), but once it got going, it seemed genuine.

I started it off telling my men that I love them both very much and I want them both to have important roles in my life. I was careful to tell hubby that he's been my best friend forever, and I want to be with him till the day I die. I told my bf that I needed him for the passion and excitement he brings to my life, and that I hope I return to him. I found myself saying how I felt like a lucky girl to have two wonderful men in her life, and that I felt totally blessed to be in this position.

The hardest part was getting my men to open up and spill the beans about their feelings. My bf confessed that while he just wanted some sort of physical thing in the beginning, his feelings have grown and he thinks of me as more than just the "trophy gf" he can stick his dick into whenever he wants. He also confessed that he gets a perverse pleasure out of knowing he's taking another guy's wife, both emotionally and physically. At the same time, he admits to fears about some of the pain he has left over from his marriage (he's divorced about 2 years after a 20 year marriage) and that these thoughts make it hard for him to get too close or trust anyone too much - especially someone like me that has a hubby to fall back on anytime I want.

My hubby also had some interesting confessions. For one thing, he thanked my bf for taking good care of me all this time, and he admitted that it somehow turned him on in a way he couldn't explain to know that his wife had found a replacement in the bedroom. He admitted that he used to feel guilty because he never thought of himself as a great lover...his words were "I used to feel like I was just masturbating inside you". He also seemed to say that he wears his cuckold status as sort of a badge of honor, sort of like he's giving me something really valuable and noble that few husbands ever would (and of course, I agreed).

We also talked more openly about his "feminine side", which he acknowledged more than he had in the past. He admitted that he often fantasizes about himself as a woman, living as sort of my roommate or sister rather than husband. We've touched on some of these things privately in the past, but somehow it seemed much more stark hearing him say it more directly and in front of my bf.

The discussion went on and on for many hours...admittedly, it was awkward when bedtime got near. I felt a little weird sitting there with my bf and having lustful thoughts running through my head, just wanting to get in bed with him so I could act them out. I'm sure both guys felt their own awkwardness too.

In the end, hubby did us a favor and broke the ice, picking himself up and telling us he was going to head off to bed in our guestroom so that we could have some alone time to enjoy each other. I was a little too tired by then for any sort of marathon love-making session, but my bf and I slid into bed and still managed to have some very tender loving before drifting off to relax. Somehow the setting seemed much more natural and "right" to me, and that made the sex feel subtly different than usual.

Saturday, we all slept late. Hubby was up first and was kind enough to make breakfast for the three of us. The morning was a little awkward, but things went fairly well, and by the end of the day, hubby and my bf were talking to each other and getting along better than I hoped they might. Saturday night we were all feeling sort of emotionally exhausted, so we talked a little more about "ground rules" and how we might change our lives (no real conclusions yet), then we watched a movie and went to bed fairly early. My bf and I saved enough energy to make it a more intense night, which I guess we always do when we know it's the last opportunity we'll have for a while. Still, somehow the whole relationship is feeling more "real" to me, and so it all took on a slightly different (better) feeling.

My bf had to be up and out early today, but I have to say, it felt like quite an intense and successful weekend overall.

Thanks to many of you who may have (even unintentionally) helped me get to a point where I could approach it this way.

Sounds like you've taken a very significant step. What were the ground rules you discussed?

Hi ValGal, great to hear that things seem to be going the right way!

I'm also curious about the ground rules the three of you have discussed, even if they're still theoretical and iffy. I'm interested in the details of how this might work out for the three of you, how you might reach a stable relationship.

I'm also curious about how you feel about your hubby after that, and where you think your feelings for him are going. At first you said you felt that one of the reamisters it felt good to be with your bf was that you didn't have to get a real relationship going -- only the good parts. Now it looks as if this is also going to happen. Will this imply changes in your feelings towards your hubby? Will he become more like a brother -- or a sister or roommate, as seems to be part of his fantasy -- and will you then feel more sisterly towards him? Thus no longer jealous should he ever feel anything for another woman?

It's probably too early for you to be able to tell. I'm asking just on the off chance that you've already had some thoughts on the topic.

Once more all the best to the three of you!

Asehpe

ValGal,

Glad to hear things are going well. Poly relationships generally go well with divorces between wife and hubby reamisterably low. Bad news, it is usually the women whom has to make sure everyones need are met. Also typically the boyfriend is gone in3-6 years. also you know you got it going on when the guys start looking at for each other and each others needs!

tom7766
Tom anderson

Tom, a lot of the "ground rule" discussions were around each of us talking through how things feel to each of us today. A lot of the talk was around hubby feeling lonely when I spend weekends with my bf, and how my bf feels lonely during the week when we don't get to see each other much. For my part, I talked a lot about how hard it feels sometimes juggling everything and trying to keep everyone happy without hard feelings erupting anywhere.

We talked through a few (at this point purely fictional) alternatives...for instance, my bf having a key to our home and more or less coming and going as he likes. Or, at very least having our encounters be like the one this weekend...if not always, at least sometimes. It gets complicated because as I pointed out in some of the other posts, my bf and I have some friends together as a couple, and it would be weird working them into our 3-way family.

We hit on lots of other topics, including the thorny how to have kids topics and whether we might at some point consider all living together in some sort of permanent family arrangement. We were all pretty tired, so I'm not sure much of it will stick, but I felt like at least everyone spoke their mind and a lot of ground got covered.

I'm sensitive to the issue you mention about how I might feel with my bf. I admit, today he is like a fantasy to me...the sex is wonderful, he's attentive to my every need, and I love him thoroughly for it. But deep down, I know that we haven't faced the tough issues most couples go through as a result of day-to-day life together, and I don't know that we're really prepared for that type of commitment yet.

I also haven't at all begun to think through how any of this impacts my feelings for my hubby. More than anything, I guess I feel a sense of relief somehow...even though I tell him whatever he wants to know about my relationship with my bf, I guess I always feel like I'm cheating on him or hiding something. The weekend helped ease that - I felt like maybe he got to see certain things (no, not that!) with his own eyes, and so maybe it'll give him new insights.

Hubby's small step out of the closet about his fem side is also on my mind more. At the time he said it, I guess I was just happy he was opening up and sharing his feelings...now, I suppose I have to think through the implications, at least regarding how it might impact me. This feels like a big and complicated thing in its own right, and quite honestly, even though I might have known some of this already, I've probably been avoiding confronting it more directly. Maybe it's time for that part too...


I don't know if this will ultimately feel right to the three of us, but I am encouraged that at least there's some dialog going on that's taking life in new directions.

ValGal,

at least right now everything is so vague and imprecise for all of you that certainty is not what any of you should be feeling. I get the impression that you all are experimenting with your feelings, trying to find out what feels good and what doesn't. It's a very interesting and intense moment: nothing is really defined yet, everything is possible. An emotional carousel. I can see why everybody gets so tired. I guess that, as long as everybody remains open and hides nothing, you have a real chance.

I wonder now if your hubby's fem side is the thing you were feeling bad about before -- the thing you thought you might have been avoiding since you had a bf to go to. I agree that you'll have to explore your feelings about that, as well as hubby's. And bf's. (I wonder what it will be like to bf to go from 'having someone else's wife' -- which apparently was part of the thrill for him -- to actually being in some sort of relationship to the husband in question. But he probably is already thinking seriously about that.)

If you feel sometimes under pressure, or emotionally tired, by having to keep both of them happy -- you can sometimes relax and watch/feel them trying to make you happy too. I'm sure both are sincerely trying to do that. Usually this fills the heart with love for the effort that is being made on our behalf. And recharges the emotional batteries.

Again all the best to all of you!

Asehpe

Asehpe, you're right about things feeling vague or imprecise. Now that the weekend is over, I've been having independent little talks with both my men and some of this is coming out more and more. Most interesting has been my bf's question to the effect of whether I want a hubby and a bf, or two hubbies. I am doing my best to be 100% honest with everyone involved, and to be careful not to stretch things, accepting that there are many things we have no answers for - at least for now.

I think you're right about hubby's fem side...I'm not really sure how I want to deal with that. It occurs to me that if it were just the two of us pre-cuck days, I'd be feeling differently. Now, I guess because I have my bf to escape to, maybe it's not as big a deal - but I also feel a certain sense of walking on emotional eggshells around it.

ValGal, would you be feeling worse about hubby's fem side in the pre-cuck days, without bf as an escape valve? Do you think this would make you angry? I get the impression that, for some reamister, his fem side is harder for you to deal with than his cuckold desires.

The funny thing is that maybe both you and bf are apparently very vanilla -- I wonder how he is reacting to this situation too. I hope he's not hiding stress just for your sake. (Men tend to ignore some of their own feelings because they think they can control themselves better and do 'what needs to be done'; and sometimes they indeed can. But not always.)

Of course communcation and talking are essential, and sincerity from all sides. But I'll make your words mine: listen also to that inner voice, and let things (slowly and carefully) happen. Women tend to be better than men at that. Often they sense where to go, or what to discuss -- hidden problems, etc. -- better than men.

Asehpe, as always, thanks for the dialog.

Yes, there's something different about dealing with hubby's fem side...somehow I suppose I see it as more of a reflection on me. I mean, with the cuck thing, I'm basically the same middle-of-the-road, well-adjusted and normal woman I've always been...but with the fem thing, well, I guess I have to somehow deal with the fact that maybe I was subconsciously attracted to someone who might be a woman inside...it's not repulsive to me I guess...just a bit weird because it's sort of intertwined with me more directly.

You're right to point out bf's stuff...I often think of him as older, more stable and somehow beyond the need to sort things out. Sometimes I probably don't give him enough room to be uncertain - his role seems to be almost like a man figure to me...someone who always has all the answers.

ValGal, I'm glad to be helpful. As Tom said, you've won our respect. I honestly hope everything works out the best way for you and your two men.

Nobody has all the answers... certainly not I, who am only full of opinions . But, for all it's worth, I get the feeling you're a vanilla heterosexual woman, and it goes against your instincts to feel attracted to someone who's not entirely male. I really have no experience there (I've never been sexually attracted to males, and I've never had any desire to be a woman), but I can guess that your hubby must feel very ambivalent about that. Especially if he thinks that his fem side might be hard for you to swallow and might cause your feelings for him to change.

Yet if you're not sincere to him about your feelings... then my experience is that they end up being expressed anyway, in other ways. You probably aren't really sure of your feelings yet; take your time and explore them, find out what you feel.

I guess relationships with older people end up including some sort of parental role... He may or may not have much experience with his own feelings in unexpected situations. He probably needs to think about it, and find out how he feels. I hope he's doing that. Men sometimes have a way of hiding their own feelings from themselves, in the hope that things can be controlled.

Re-reading what I wrote, it doesn't sound like very coherent advice... I hope it helps anyway.

Three adults? Hey, knock yourself out but just be prepared for the fact that it is hugely unlikely that this kind of thing will last and you will certainly become a bit of a pariah when (not if) the neighbors figure it out.

But kids? Come on... You cant possibly be serious. If you seriously have a desire to procreate long term, recognize that this situation is ridiculous and selfish and have the selflessness to provide your offspring with a normal home life.

It is difficult enough as it is for kids today without having to shoulder MORE bullcuckolds brownie baggage from the adults that spawned them. I have gay friends who have adopted and THAT is amazingly hard. IMAGINE the stigma attached to not just a "poly" household, but a matriarchal one? Not to mention that it is unlikely to be legal and anyone vindictive could probably pretty easily get young protective services involved (havent you noticed all of the cuckolds brownie going on with the polygamist sects?)

IF this thread IS real (still not convinced of that), *please* do a very serious reality check before introducing youngren into this tossed salad of adult dysfunction.

Hi thebitbucket, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And I certainly agree that poly-relationships are harder than couples. But I also think that this decision is theirs to take, not yours. You're not even sure they exist...

As you point out, kids are often loaded with baggage from their parents even in vanilla families. I am sure the three people involved are aware of that, and would not take such a step lightly. Anyone with a non-mainstream situation would be in this situation; they have to think a lot and make hard decisions. But sometimes they make them. Have you ever thought of asking your gay friends why they decided to adopt a kid (despite being told -- as you certainly would have told them, being the good friend you are -- that this would be a potentially disastrous step, especially for the adopted young?)

People should always, always be aware of the consequences of the steps they take. ValGal and her men should certainly think carefully about the problems you mention. But, in-between us: there's no need to be offensive. IF your advice is well meant (still not convinced of that), *please* phrase it better before tossing it into other people's salads.

thebitbucket, in spite of your judgemental and condescending tone, I do appreciate what you're saying. If I didn't make it clear in one of my earlier posts, I'm not at the stage where having kids is something I want in the here and now...in the future, absolutely - but I don't know whether "future" is six months or five years out. And when it becomes a more urgent issue to me, I will most definitely act according to what I think is best for the young, no matter what.

Asehpe, thanks for the chivalry...I have a reamisterably thick skin, and I guess I realize that people in here are mostly just indulging in imaginitive fantasy. And I'm sure if I think that way, I suppose most people probably suspect I'm some middle-aged guy acting out my own weird compulsions. I can't do anything about that, but I can speak from what to me is a sincere place, and hoping I attract equally sincere responses, such as yours have been. Separating the wheat from the chaff is just part of it, I guess.

ValGal,

I spent some time reading all of the posts and one thing stuck out to me that I think you need to be aware of. Yopu mentioned that your BF is older and sometimes seems to have all the answers and is somewhat of a man figure. Remember that you are your own strong woman and have your own thoughts, ideas and opinions. When you have feelings like this it is easy to get swayed to default to what he wants and not what you are your husband need. I am not saying to not listen to him just realize what your own words said about him so take what he speaks into account but be sure that you are staying true to yourself.

Tom7766
Tom anderson

Tom, thanks for checking in...very perceptive of you - I do have some issues in that area. For the most part, I'm the hard-as-nails type - it's probably a defensive thing I project to the world in both a professional and permisteral way. Helps me seem fearless and beyond getting my little heart trampled. But underneath, I admit that I'm much softer and more vulnerable, and I think one of the reamisters I hooked up with my bf is exactly because he can be the big, strong guy I've always looked up to. It's easy for me to slide into much more of a submissive role with him, and I understand I have to watch out for that. Okay to be submissive in the bedroom, but not necessarily where serious life decisions are being made. Still, I mouth the words, but I'm not so sure I don't surrender too easily at some levels.

ValGal, my pleasure. I think thebitbucket reminded me of (I'm not saying s/he is, but his/her choice of words is reminiscent of) the manipulative people I've met. So I couldn't help but react... I note that, despite that, s/he is a lot better than the disruptive people you can find in many other threads: s/he does have valid points and explains them clearly.

You do sound sincere, and your situation -- at least your initial situation -- is very similar to what I had been fantasizing about. Call it a superstition if you will, but if your situation works out well, I feel like mine could have a chance, too.

Do I sound more optimistic? Well, that's because... I've had an interesting conversation with me a couple of days ago. She still seems to think it would be better for me to try to change ('get over my problems', etc.), but she's willing to -- sometimes -- play along with my fantasy. She strongly stresses that she's fully vanilla and doesn't want to change that, but... for instance, when she went to her Karl Jaspers discussion group yesterday, she winked to me before leaving and said she was going to her lover. She immediately burst into laughter, because the situation seemed so surreal to her (like something out of an Ally McBeal episode, I thought to myself). And I was left wondering if there was hope. If I make it sound like a joke, if she laughs at it, then at least it isn't just worrisome or frightening to her anymore. Maybe if I play at teasing out the little girl in her, ready to laugh at something funny that this little boy is doing, maybe she won't feel sorry for me, and maybe there'll be something fun for both of us. Who knows? If this goes on...

ValGal and Tom, it occurred to me that maybe not only ValGal but also her bf are basically vanilla people. ValGal, it might be that your bf is just as disturbed by your hubby's cuck fetish (and now also his feminine side) without having the love you feel for your hubby to help him digest that. He might think that this is something he has to put up with for your sake. He may think he can handle this. If he's thinking this, he may be -- or not be -- right. (And I also wonder what your hubby's feelings might be in case he feels your bf has this attitude.)

Tom, I've sent an e-mail to the address you mentioned a few posts back. Did you get it? I've been having trouble with my e-mail account, so maybe you didn't.

Hm, the end of my one-month registration at this forum should be a few days from today. My wife isn't very happy about me being here ('these people aren't really happy'), so I may not renew it. At any rate, I'll keep reading this thread.

Asehpe

I meant to say 'I've had a conversation with my wife', not 'with me', of course. Damn forum without an option for editing previous posts...

Tom,

thanks, I'll send the e-mail again today. I'm really sorry for the couple you mentioned. They must be terribly unhappy now, with all kinds of conflicting feelings. I wonder how you could help them, other than by suggesting that they move to some other place where nobody knows them...

Tom, let me echo asehpe's comments about the poor couple. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

As for us, we live in a fairly "blue" state with mostly liberal attitudes. For me specifically, I tend to be a bit of a rebel about this sort of stuff...if anything, it would probably just encourage me even more. I grew up as an admittedly over-indulged and spoiled young in a wealthy family, and I've always had a streak of rebellion in me. Almost eggs me on if I think I can get a rise out of other people, especially when I sense that it's sort of shocking to them.

I do feel a little uncomfortable sometimes when I'm out with bf and our friends...but not because of what you say. For me, the main thing is that most of our friends are older and are living the typical middle-class life (kids, etc)...hard for me to relate to much of that.

I guess I believe in the idea that most of us have something or other that we wouldn't be proud to air in public. My bf's best friend owns a kitchen remodeling business...I'm sure he wouldn't be proud of the number of illegals he hires, if word of that got out. The wife of another one of our friends confided privately to me that her kid isn't her hubby's, and he doesn't know. Sort of convinces me that everyone has something to worry about. Plus, neither hubby nor I have deep local roots in the area, so I guess we feel we could handle any scandal that might erupt. In a sense, we're both accustomed to that based on events in our earlier life.

ValGal, one good thing about Tom's comments is that his experience keeps bringing up problems that other people don't usually remember -- in this case, the extended family and circle of friends. It seems you can deal with that well, and perhaps also your hubby; is your bf also OK with that? The circle of friends you mentioned may be more important to him than to you. Were they his friends before you met him?

Depending on when exactly my subscrition here ends -- today, tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow --, this may be my last post. Tom, I have sent you an e-mail again; I think your address should be '@hotmail', not '@tomail'; that was apparently the reamister why my first e-mail didn't reach you. Thanks in advance for your efforts to help. ValGal, I sincerely wish you and your men the best in your search for happiness; you (and Tom) have opened my eyes to several aspects of the cuckold lifestyle that I had never thought about. Thank you for that! Thanks also to the others who expressed their opinions, like rdvrk, wickedssub1 and, yes, even thebitbucket. Good luck in your own lives. Should any of you want to send me an e-mail, I can be reached at [email protected].

asehpe, ValGal

asehpe, I will be sorry to see you go but I will be in touch. And you are right it is [email protected]. ValGal thanks for your comments I do appreciate it. I am a little sad today that the couple I mentioned have seperated due to all of the agony brought about by the wife getting caught. I hope to get them back togehter soon as I believe that seperations are only good if there is physical use going on or very long term issues. It seems to me to work on issues you have to be together and not apart. Being disowned by Daddy was just to overwhelming for the wife and basically she is just lost right now and questioning everything including her marriage. The only support these two people have are each other and being apart is just going to make it worse. The husband feels like his wife is choosing daddy over him so he feels bad for both that and the fact that his wife felt that she had to leave.

Tom7766
Tom anderson

asehpe, ValGal

asehpe, I will be sorry to see you go but I will be in touch. And you are right it is [email protected]. ValGal thanks for your comments I do appreciate it. I am a little sad today that the couple I mentioned have seperated due to all of the agony brought about by the wife getting caught. I hope to get them back togehter soon as I believe that seperations are only good if there is physical use going on or very long term issues. It seems to me to work on issues you have to be together and not apart. Being disowned by Daddy was just to overwhelming for the wife and basically she is just lost right now and questioning everything including her marriage. The only support these two people have are each other and being apart is just going to make it worse. The husband feels like his wife is choosing daddy over him so he feels bad for both that and the fact that his wife felt that she had to leave.

Tom7766
Tom anderson

Asehpe,

I don't get your referring to a subscription expiring. This site is free.

Subserv,

if I'm not mistaken, when I signed up, there were several options, one being a one-month non-renewable membership. This was necessary for posting messages (I had tried before without success), so I took this option and registered for one month. I'm assuming that, once the month is over, I will no longer be able to post, though I will still be able to read messages here.

Asehpe, I think subserv is right - this is a free site. Or, at least I don't have any sort of subscription.

Anyway, we're in the middle of our third long weekend "as a family" and I guess I'll say that I'm still cautiously optimistic. My bf and I have about the same intensity and connection we had when it was just the two of us, and hubby seems to be coping okay, although I notice his sub/fem permistera seems much more out in the open when my bf is around.

Speaking of that, during the past week, I had a few deep discussions with hubby about his evolving fem side, and I guess I have mixed reactions. On one hand, I sort of feel sorry for him because it sounds like some of these things run really deep in him and he's been living all his life without any real outlet for them. What a curse that must feel like. But on the other side, it does make me feel a little like I don't know him as well as I thought I did. Thing is, we've been friends since we're 5 years old...I always thought we were open books to each other, but I guess I was missing some stuff, or quite possibly in denial and intentionally avoiding it.

Anyway, I've decided that the least I can do is be supportive and try to help him become whatever it is he wants to be...I mean, he's done so much for me, and because I love him, I want him to have everything in life he can have.