Loosing interest in hubby

Asehpe, when I say "being unfair to myself", I generally refer to the possibility that there might be some deep seated problem going on that I've found a way to avoid by taking on a lover. Maybe (and I don't believe this) there is some incredible incompatibility between hubby and me, and I'm just avoiding or deferring experiencing the pain of coping with it this way. And I suppose the same thing is possible for hubby...clearly, he has deep issues of one sort or another - is this situation helping him, hurting him or keeping him locked in suspended animation where he can't grow and resolve his stuff.

These have always been my biggest concerns, and now that I have this wonderful built-in "escape" (my bf), I worry that I'm just becoming blind to more than just hubby's sexual needs. I suppose there are worse things than losing sexual interest in hubby (which is where the thread mostly has been)...does a loss of sexual interest add up to other kinds of emotional distance over time as well? If so, how do you prevent this sort of thing?

Tom, it's good to hear from a professional - thanks for carbonsmudgecking in. I don't disagree with you at all...indeed you echo many of the concerns I've had. As I explained to Asehpe above, I am sincerely concerned that it's become too easy for me to overlook our problems in any objective way since I have such a great escape waiting for me any time I want it. In "vanilla" marriages, it seems that both people have something on the line all the time: they either deal with their issues, or they lose intimacy. In my case, no matter how I might try, at some level I know that most of my intimacy (at least the physical part) isn't coming from hubby, so I must have less motivation to really keep our marriage on an even keel.

You cite a 75% divorce rate...well, that at least implies there are *some* couples who navigate these waters and come out unbrowniehed. We do have wonderful communications and are (sometimes painfully) honest with each other. Not really asking for free professional guidance, but how do the successful ones proceed once they get to this sort of situation?

ValGal,

Typically the sucessful ones get out! If not the
1) minimize the offense aspect
2) Absolutely do not do if you have kids or do not have them. They will find out and they will not understand.
3) Do not do 24/7
4) maintain some level of physical intamacy
5) When these relationships succeed it is ALWAYS due to the women. You cannot believe what your husband always tells you. It is not that he wants to lie, it is that he is lying to himself and by the time most women figure it out it is too late. At best a divorce, at worst in my practise 3 suicides, all male and one *******ing of the wife.

My best to you and your husband

Tom7766
Tom anderson

No offense taken, as ever. You're being inquisitive and polite, which is much appreciated.

I wouldn't exactly say that anything is/was lacking. My wife and I, when we had sex, had pretty good sex.

Rather, there's something in my wiring that got crossed at some point in my life that makes me intensely attracted to a situation that the overwhelming majority of men would find loathsome: my wife having sex with someone else. That was (and is) more central to my sexual experience than the sensation of intercourse.

Here's the root question, and I have no answer for it: why is this hot for me (and, presumably, others who read on this board)? No matter how much I ponder, I have no idea why this is so intense for me.

To all participants, this thread is getting more and more interesting. It's very stimulating.

ValGal, I think I understand your concern better now. It sounds like the situation, in vanilla marriages, when one of the partners avoids facing some problem in the relationship by concentrating on some other pleasurable activity -- the job, a hobby, the local church, the youngren, or even something more physically rewarding like (over)eating chocolates.

At one point in my life, it turned out I was using my work to not think about the fact (obvious in restrospect, I should say, but also not hard to see even at the time) that my first girlfriend was much less interested in me than I was in her. She was so full of energy and so pleasant to everybody around her that I could fool myself by attributing more meaning to her manifestations of affection than was truly there. Of course there were also moments when the 'emotional asymmetry' between us became more or less obvious. Because she was, consciously and ***ly, herself in doubt, she'd sometimes send out conflicting signals. Simplifying a little, I could say that those signals were often the trigger of a sudden desire to go work on my last paper: they'd sometimes show that I had been fooling myself, and I wanted to avoid this pain.

Do you perhaps see similar patterns in yourself? Do you suddenly think of your lover when some potentially painful detail about your relationship unexpectedly shows up? Or any other patterns that might justify your vague apprehension that you may be avoiding something? You've said several times that your hubby 'clearly has some deep issues of one sort or another'; if something happens that reminds you of hubby's 'deep issues', do you sometimes start avoiding it?

You seem to worry that you may be becoming less sensitive to hubby's problems; that because of the wonderful bf, hubby may be slowly becoming... not-your-problem. In short, that you're slowly falling out of love with him. Like the traditional husband who gets so interested in his work that he starts neglecting, and ultimately distancing himself from, his family more and more. This is a legitimate concern; in fact, in light of Tom's posts, it would seem it's not impossible. He seems to have witnessed precisely this kind of situation. Being, as I said, more than a little workaholic myself, I can also relate.

My suggestion to you -- or to a husband who's vaguely apprehensive that he is slowly distancing himself from his family because of his work -- is: know thyself. Examine yourself. Is this a vague apprehension without any empirical supporting evidence yet -- because the social stereotype says that cuckolding wives are 'bad girls' and 'selfish', so since I clearly enjoy my boyfriend, maybe I am being selfish, maybe I am already neglecting hubby? -- or do you notice avoidance patterns like the above that suggest something like this is really already happening? Is it more 'I'm-afraid-this-might-eventually-happen', or is it rather 'why-do-I-stop-listening-to-hubby-when-he-talks-about-his-problems-and -start-thinking-about-my-boyfriend-instead'?

My first gut feeling is that your concern is a good sign. Just like it is a good sign if the husband who may or may not be distancing himself from his family worries about that: it means that his is important to him, and he doesn't want that to change.

If you do find such signs... I'd look at them like this. 'Avoidance' usually doesn't mean you're 'bad' to others; it tends to mean that you're fooling yourself about something. (I was fooling myself by trying to believe my first bf liked me more than she actually did.) I'd try to find out what it is that I'm lying to myself about. And then I'd think about what to do.

I hope this helps !

Asehpe

Asehpe, thanks for the insightful commentary - you're getting closer to the mark.

I try to tell myself that if I'm still concerned about hubby and our emotional welfare - even though he's not my primary sex partner any more - things must be okay. Then I also go to the place where I admit that hubby is somehow living his biggest fantasy...even if I don't understand it myself. Then thoughts about my bf sink in and complicate matters even more. It all gets really confusing sometimes.

Hubby and I have been talking quite a bit more lately about these things...indeed, we've even managed to have several conversations where there is no discussion about sex at all. In a funny way, it's also helping me get in touch with what I want for an "end game".

Anyway, thanks to everyone who's replied recently...I really get a lot out of the posts lately in a positive way.

ValGal,

I'm glad the posts are being helpful. I think it's good to be able to help -- and I'm sure the other posters will agree.

I agree 100% with Tom that talking is essential (remember the Pink Floyd misterg -- "all you need to do... is make sure... that you keep... talking..."). Try to understand your husband -- where he's at, whether or not he is lying to himself (as Tom suggests many cucks ***ly are) -- but I know this can be a daunting task, because you're not a female cuck (is there a word for that?). But trying will build bridges and test connections and take you closer to whatever "end game" you want.

But first and foremost, even more important -- try to understand yourself. In some senses that's harder than understanding others... because we blind ourselves to several things in us that others can see. (It helps to listen to other people's opinions about you -- say your hubby's. Other people are often wrong about us, but they are also sometimes surprisingly right. You decide . But it's part of trying to decide what you want for an 'end game'.

As for understanding cucks, here's a little sad tale from my own life that may or may not help. You tell.

When I finally realized my first gf wasn't as interested in me as I had thought -- when I analyzed my own avoidance behavior and hers --, I first made the wrong decision: I decided I'd try to be 'what she wanted and needed'. Many people do that ***ly in their 'first love' relationships, usually with disastrous results. I did it willingly and consciously, aware that it often fails, but so convinced that I was really in love with her that I could see no other rational alternative.

The result was that she became even more undecided, her signals became even more ambiguous, and she started suffering herself even more. I wouldn't have said this at the time, but now, in retrospect, I think what happened was that she sensed that I was, at some level, pretending to be someone I wasn't. People seem to be able to 'feel' such lies, even when you're a good actor. And that was not what she wanted. But she didn't understand it intellectually -- call it her 'female intuition' if you want. So she was in doubt, she couldn't understand herself what was wrong, and at one point she started sobbing and saying that she'd never meet as good a guy as I was and that she was a fool for not loving me more (see, that's what I mean by ambiguity -- she didn't say she didn't love me, she said she wanted to 'love me more'... so she loves me a little... so there's something that I can make grow... etc.)

Eventually a guy came around who she did fall in love with. This happened while I was away, gathering data for my disseration on a field trip to an Indian village somewhere in the Amazon rainforest (the three of us -- me, this gf, and the guy who eventually became her husband -- were grad students at that time). When I came back, a few months later, all was decided: she was terribly in love with him, he was terribly in love with her, and she tried to tell me that in several meetings, with quiet sad eyes that looked to me like they were hoping I could do the telling for her, so that she wouldn't have to hurt me. She couldn't, she told me part of it, and friends stepped in and told the rest.

Before our common friends talked to me, there was an almost hollywoodian situation. The grad students' room in our university department has this semi-rooms, which can be isolated from the main room by a sliding door, where the senior grad students can isolate themselves to study if they want. One night, after 1 am, I was quietly copying some pages from a source I needed in the copy room, when I saw my gf going to the grad students' room. I wanted to talk to her, so I quickly finished my copying and went there too.

When I came in, there was nobody, but the door of one of the semi-rooms was shut. When I came close, I heard a few noises -- whispering voices -- and to my horror I realized my gf and that other guy were together inside the semi-room. I sat on the floor, next to the door. They were being very discreet, but it was obvious to me that they were having sex. I could even recognize some of the patterns in her sighs. I started crying, slowly but silently, so as not to reveal that I was there.

And I just sat there, listened, and went on crying silently, for almost an hour, till they were done. This remains to this day the most painful hour of my life.

The interesting theoretical part? You might say this is almost exactly a cuck's dream come true. Wife excited by being with lover (so excited they decided do have sex in a more-or-less public place... and it was clearly her idea, not his). Hubby is given no attention, he is totally ignored, he waits next to the door, all he can do is hear the passion in the embrace of wife and lover.

Couldn't I turn that into a cuckold fantasy? Couldn't I get an orgasm from that? No, absolutely not. And the reamister is simple. Only two people were involved here. In a cuck fantasy, there are three people: hubby, wife and lover. But in that situation, my gf's guy was playing the role of hubby and lover -- and I was playing no role at all. I was not in the picture -- not in the way that a cuck husband is made to be 'not in the picture' during the fantasy (you can read lots of similar situations in the stories on this forum) -- but I had no role to play; I really, literally, totally, completely, was not a part of it. And here is, if you want, all the difference between being a cuck and being cheated (or actually, in this case, not being loved).

What happened afterwards? When I noticed they were done, I stood up and silently left, so that they wouldn't see me. I never told my gf, so to this day she doesn't know this happened. I just took the elevator and went downstairs, then I left the building and started wandering around, from Fondren Library to the Mudd Building then to Sewall Hall then back to the library, till a car from the campus police saw me, stopped, and a friendly-looking male officer offered me a ride home. Even after almost an hour I hadn't stopped crying, so my face was a mess; and even though it was freezing outside (at least by my Brazilian standards), I had left my coat in the department building (it felt strangely OK to be shivering from cold then, in harmony with my feelings, let's say). The officer was polite enough to pretend not to notice that. When I got to my room, I went straight to my computer, opened the file with my dissertation and worked for I don't know how many hours straight -- I remember the sun was way up in the sky when I finally fell arelax on the table. The following day I knew for a fact that trying to be what my gf wanted would never work; that it had been the wrong decision to take, even if was taken intellectually, as an attempt to solve a problem with precision. I had to look for another way out.

I'm not sure if this story is any help, but I thought it might shed some light on what a cuck is. Or at least what this cuck-wannabe here is.

Asehpe.

Tom,

in case you're still reading this thread... you mentioned your opinion that cuck fantasies start from trigger events in early younghood -- not (necessarily) use, but simpler situations. This sounded strangely true to me, but I couldn't understand why at first, till I remembered something from my early younghood: some stirrings of (maybe sexual?) pleasure I felt when my little sisters would play 'horsie' with me. I'd be their horsie and they'd ride me for a while, with little gleeful giggles. It was a lot of fun. Of course it wasn't the only game we played, but it occurred to me that my cuck/presentation fantasies might have started from me simply reading a 'more sexual' meaning in their gleeful sounds -- if one my sisters smiled once in a sexier way than usual, then maybe this started a chain reaction (no doubt reinpowerd by other occasions of 'horsie' playing) that led to my current desires.

Could it be that simple? Could it be that, if she hadn't smiled (or if we never had played 'horsie'), then I'd never have developed cuckold and D/s fantasies? Is something so important and intimate ultimately just the result of a chance event that could very easily have happened differently?

Scary thought. Makes life look like a Milan Kundera book.

Asehpe, that's quite a story...I don't know you, but I can only imagine how painful that must of been to you, especially if you really cared deeply for her.

For what it's worth, I've heard similar tales from some of my female friends..."he's such a good guy - why aren't I attracted to him?". My advice is always the same: be honest with him.

In my view, we all have a basic commitment to be honest, especially when someone else's feelings are involved - no matter how difficult it is. Funny, she probably wanted to spare you and pain, and yet I suspect she couldn't have found a more painful approach if she tried.

Anyway, I know school is a difficult time...in our case, hubby and I went to college on opposite sides of the country, and at one point, we went nearly six months without seeing each other in the flesh. Funny, even then he was into the cuck thing...his advice to me was to find someone and have a little fling. He thought otherwise I might get so lonely, I might meet someone and have it go the way you described. I guess it was easier for him to accept me cheating than losing me altogether.

Thanks for sharing...

ValGal,

Thanks. But this happened over nine years ago (time flies...), and I've told the story to several supportive friends in the meantime. It was a terrible day then, it's only a bitter memory now. The current problem is that my wife -- a totally different permister in all respects -- is not at all into cuck or D/s play. (Curiously enough, my first gf would probably have been much more approachable for this topic, perhaps even interested herself. Oh life...). I've broached the topic about two years ago, and her basic attitude hasn't changed. Since I can't change myself (if there was a pill that would convert cuck+D/s desires into vanilla desires, I'd take it for her; but there isn't) and I can't power her to go against her own nature (she has quite a strong permisterality, much like myself), I currently don't see how to avoid a slowly growing but apparently unavoidable separation.

Indeed I see in retrospect that it would have been better if my first gf had acted as you advised your friends: by being honest to me. At the time, I would have probably preferred her not to do so (because I was trying to find out how to be what she wanted/needed, and I might not believe her; or, if I did, this would concentrate the pain in one moment instead of diluting it through several months). But in retrospect, I agree 100% with you. I ended up suffering a lot more from the delay and from lingering hopes than I would have if everything had been decided more quickly. On her defense, I will say that she herself was in doubt for quite a while, and that after she was sure she tried several times but couldn't do it. Maybe if she were just a little less nice, it would have been better for both of us.

Cuck desires may be hard to understand to non-cucks; in fact, as rdvrk put it, they sound crazy even to the cucks and cuck-wannabies themselves. But maybe it's just as hard to understand as the old mystery of love, 'what-did-s/he-see-in-him/her' or 'why-doesn't-s/he-like-the-nice-guy/girl-instead-of-the-nasty-one'.

I hope your own attempts at understanding your hubby (and especially at understanding yourself) are going well and end up being successful. Let us know what the 'end game' situation is that you want once you find it. I wish the three of you the best.

One thought I just had, re-reading what you said in one of your posts about your feelings for hubby and bf. My love for my gf was deep, and so is my love for my wife. But they are in so many ways different, in some important sense they feel so different to me, who experienced them -- as different as those two women were different from each other --, that I've wondered if I shouldn't use two different words to refer to them. As much as love is a beautiful word, it seems to me that it sometimes hides more than it reveals, by suggesting too much similarity between situations that are in almost all respects (except in the existence of sex-based attraction) totally different.

SheDatesHeWaits,

You are right in that the results of the two studies were questioned. In fact there were more reamisters that you listed that bought up "red flags". In an attempt to verify/refute, all methodology and results were turned over to a 3rd party contractor known to be an expert in surveys, interviews and stats. Their finding was that alt lifestyles was at a 76% divorce rate and not 75% so this also goes along with what I see. Naturally this does not mean all are bound to fail or that your relationship is not rock solid and will forever be that way.

Wishing you well
Tom7766
Tom anderson

asehpe,

Yes your horsie play could be that simple. For example, I deal with a couple where the man is very into diapers and such. His wife was concerned about this. They came in together and I found out that when the man was wround 4 he was palying outside and he had to use the toilet. As kids will do he refused to go inside since he wanted to keep playing. He of course accidently went in his pants. His man was mad and made his lady put a diaper on him for the purpose of offense. He was too big so his lady improvised and made one from a towel. The lady wasn't real happy with this whole idea so she play along yet didn't. She pulled the little boy and her lap and held and cuddled him while calling him her sweet litle baby. At that moment the "guy" felt more loved and safe than at any other time in his life. Hence his little fetish. When his wife heard this and I asked her if this really had a negative effect on her she stated no and they are doing great and he still does this activity occasionally. One example of a trigger. ValGal I hope you are doing well. ValGal/asehpe if you ever have something that you want to talk about more privately please email me.

Wishing everyone good relationships,

Tom7766
Tom anderson

Hello,

First, please let me congratulate all the posters in this thread for their meaningful, enlightening experiences and professional opinions. I have followed this thread for a few weeks and decided to move from 'reader' to 'poster' after reading the professional thoughts of Tom7766.
Tom, you paint a bleak picture of the success rate in cuckold relationships, but, in my opinion, fail to illustrate your definition of intimacy. I think intimacy lies in the minds of the couple, and what can be construed as 'intimacy' in a vanilla relationship might not be true in a femdom or cuckold relationship.
Specifically, whether or not the husband or wife feels there is intimacy depends fully on how the individuals in the relationship define their intimacy. Do the couples you've seen feel intimacy is lost, or was intimacy, in it's standard definition lost? I think that makes a big difference.
For example, if a couple has been engaged in a purely Femdom relationship, as my wife and I have, from the start, does that bias the terms of intimacy from a couple who have evolved from vanilla or semi-vanilla to a cuckold relationship?
In my opinion, and I could be totally wrong, you are completely right to say that once intimacy is lost or projected upon a third party that the divorce papers aren't far behind. But, I think that a satisfied husband and wife, who feel their primary intimacy is between each other, no matter how THEY define it, aren't in danger of becoming 4:1 odds against a successful marriage.
When my wife is blue, she wouldn't think of going to her bull's house for sex. And, it was enlightening the first time it happened. She was in a bad mood, and for some reamister not happy with her lot in life at a particular moment. She had plans with her bull that night and cancelled for the sole fact she wanted me to pull her from the funk and spend the time with me if the funk was not to be dislodged for that immediate future. It wasn't sex, but the intimacy I felt and that she felt was more important to our relationship than any 15 minutes of penetration to be had in the world.
We haven't figured it all out yet. I feel jealousy and she doesn't always read it well. I get jealous when I probably shouldn't at times, and she reads it better than any psychologist. I think the bottom line is that I always feel her top priority is our relationship, and I think she feels the same way. Does it ensure we never disagree-hell no. Does it open communication whenever it's required - hell yes.
We've taken the time to read "The Ethical Slut" and attended workshops and discussed jealousy, pleasure and open relationship with professionals. If I could recommend one thing to prospective or current cuckold relationships, that would be it. Talk. Talk to others. Read what's out there. Don't take anything for granted and don't fear getting into an argument now and then to ensure everyone's feelings are heard.
Our bottom line is that this isn't easy. It produces immeasurable fun for everyone, but has HUGE potential to destroy. Don't forget that the plug can be pulled at any time, and the consequences of pulling it will never be worse than those of not pulling it if things go to far or badly.
My two cents worth...

wickedssub1,

I think the outlook is bleak. I also think that you nd your wife are doing all the right things, open communication, reading resources and do have a good level off communication. I do think for a successful relationship intimacy has to include expressions of love and some kind of sex
Tom anderson

Dear Tom,

Thanks for your kind offer. I hope I'm not presuming too much by asking your advice -- as ValGal said, I don't want to look like I'm asking for a free consultation. But since you offered... and please feel free not to answer if you think I'm asking for too much help.

If you've read my other posts you know my wife is not into cuckod-D/s play, but I am. I've mentioned the topic to her, I've been mentioning it for two years, but up until now she only feels sorry for me and wonders if I shouldn't see a doctor.

So: what do you think I should do?

(a) continue trying to convince her? (But I get the feeling I'm putting pressure on her to do something she doesn't want to);
(b) stop asking and try to get pleasure from something else? (I've tried, but because of my desires I end up having to fantasize a lot in my head, and she often notices and worries; doesn't seem very stable);
(c) try to change the nature of my desires? (is there a way to do that? I am actually curious about this; since you said trigger events in early younghood can be quite simple, is it possible to revert them somehow in your opinion? Or is it as hopeless as trying to 'cure' homosexuality?)

I fear we're now in a downward spiral. It isn't terribly bad yet, but I don't see how to avoid a situation in which sex between us becomes less and less real, less and less interesting, and less and less frequent. And I don't know where this will end. (She also has lots of problems in her professional career right now, which adds quite a lot to the stress.)

Thanks,

Asehpe.


Send message to:

I agree that the pressuring route will lead to diminishing returns and highly suggest working on the "stress at work" and the vanilla issues before embarking on a lifestyle that could tax the best of relationships.
When we've had stress in our lives, even after fully embarking on a cuckold lifestyle, we step away. We've gone a few years without a single experience when our lives were too hectic to incorporate the time and effort into making cuckolding work.
It all boils down to where it lies in the priority of your relationship. If it's anywhere above the "this is for fun" line, trouble is soon to follow. I think keeping it in perspective and knowing when it 'fits' and when it doesn't goes a long way.

To all the recent posters, I want to say that I'm really impressed with the level of the discussion lately. I always find most online forums sort of sleazy, but this is starting to sound like real people helping each other out...as originator of the thread, I'm sort of proud of that.

Anyway, I'm just getting home from spending the last two nights with my bf, and I thought I'd tell everyone that we've sort of started a new line of discussion around a more stable arrangement.

It's still early stages and I'm not saying anything is decided (or even clearly understood), but the thought is to maybe form some type of family out of the three of us (me, hubby, bf) living together. Sort of a polygamous setup, but instead of a guy and multiple wives, me and two hubbies.

It was mostly my bf's suggestion and I haven't really made up my mind how I feel about it yet, but at least it feels like a loving attempt by him to get closer to me without asking me to sacrifice my marriage to hubby.

Haven't brought it up to hubby yet...guess I want to get my bearings first.

Curious what everyone will think about this sort of arrangement.

Val

ValGal,

How would it work out if you all three lived together? What would be hubby's role? Seems to me that you enjoy your private time with your BF. Would that continue? Would your hubby be happy with not having sex with you and with your BF handling that part of your life? Is hubby into being humiliated by your BF?

ValGal,

I just had another thought -- I suppose a lot will also depend on how well the possible new arrangement fits your hubby's fantasies. From what you know, what do you think? (You mentioned once that hubby has a feminine side, and enjoys feminine clothing, etc; it might be a problem for him to do that with bf living in the same house, and then he might feel as if his liberty had decreased in his own house...)

Asehpe

Tom, sorry to hear about your mom. I guess it sort of puts things in perspective.

Subserv, the idea would be to create something more permanant that recognizes that there are three people involved here. It's appealing to me because I do have very strong loving feelings for both of my guys, just in different ways, and I guess it might feel somehow more "stable" to me than what we do today. Being a woman, I suppose one of the things I struggle with is that I'm having a deep, sexual relationship with someone - yet there's really no commitment beyond "see you next time". Knowing that we'd be coming home together to some kind of shared life - and not having to sacrifice hubby - seems like it might be a better solution for me.

Of course, hubby hasn't weighed in on the idea yet...I mentioned it to him for the first time last night and I'm not sure it really sunk in. At least initially, it seemed to be all about the sex and perhaps some of the offense he might feel (which seemed to arouse him), but it's more than that. It's mostly about the three of us making a commitment to live together this way, and like I said, I'm not sure that part sunk in yet. Of course, my bf might be in the same boat...I'm sure he's thinking that it's mostly about getting to relax with me every night, more than it being about trying to build a family together.

Asehpe, I'm stricken by the way you describe your relationship, and it's given me some new insights into my own situation. I suppose for me the broad issue of cuckolding has always been something that isn't life or death....rather, it's something hubby offers that I've learned to live with and have fun with. What you point out so eloquently is the other side of this equation...it *is* life and death, something you really have no control over, to the point of it being an ongoing obsession. I suppose I've thought these kinds of words, but hearing some of the things you're saying certainly crystalizes it for me.

Now, tell your wife to get out there and have some fun! If she can't/won't, just have her send me a note and I'll give her a few pointers...

My bf suggested that a possible next step would be for the three of us to start spending more time together "as a family". In other words, just doing day to day things without necessarily a big sexual component in the air. That might give all of us a sense of whether this could work and where the pitfalls might be.

Anyway, stay tuned for more...

Hi Val,

If you remember me, I had PMed you initially when the thread started, suggesting polyandry would be a probable solution. You can refer that mail and if you need any further details on it let me know. I am aware of these, and seen some first hand. Few sects in north eastern states in India have these sort of marriages and being from the country I am quite aware. These relations are described in Tantra and to some extent Kamasutra....well not sexually more in terms or how rules are laid or basic philosophy and system to it.

Actually what caught my eye was



I do agree women as ladys and sisters have so much power to emotionally push you around while growing up. Its once you realize over the years on how things have been manipulated you start being a sub or rebellious...not to mention other negative emotions toward your own people. It may just start by favoritisms or making you quietly oblige....Well women are the one, esp. lady and wife who can make or break a man. Its them who can make a lion out of sheep or a sheep...well here you can say ....a cuck out man.

Btw. what your BF suggested is a right way to approach it. Refer to my old PM or PM regarding one of the communication system and you might want to try it out.

Wish you all the best ValGal.

Tom, sorry about your lady. I hope you get through this well. Thanks also for the offer to help. The fight with my wife was, as I had expected, short-lived; we're already reconciled. (It was about whether or not people in alternative lifestyles could actually be happy; my wife claimed that their happiness, if it existed at all, was based on deeper problems that they should try to understand and solve rather than simply ignore; I took the opposite viewpoint; sparks flew... we're both better at handling argumentation than the accompanying emotions... and I ended up in the attic room.) I do try to tell my wife how much I love her as often as possible. I think she feels it. She also tells me she loves me, and I do feel it too.

ValGal, I really hope it works out well for the three of you. I think your bf is probably right: it's a good idea to see how the three of you feel like when you're together. Normal situations first, taking care of the house, buying groceries, cooking dinner... Perhaps spending time together in another setting -- a couple of days' vacation somewhere, maybe. And only deciding after that. (I wondered if the age difference between bf and hubby would be a problem -- your bf is older, right? Maybe also differences in worldview, political opinion -- Hillary or Obama? -- Your bf is older, right). I'm glad to see your bf, not you, take the initiative in suggesting this; it suggests he is, after all, interested in more than a 'trophy girlfriend'.

On the other hand... A potential problem would be a competition for your attention. If done in good sport, it could be funny and amusing; if not, it could be tragic. (This things often happen between siblings, by the way.)

It's funny, ValGal, I've just had the thought that heater1 may have been right in an earlier post (though she said it in a rather off-putting self-righteous way): maybe your story is about a vanilla girl who married a non-vanilla man and how she tried to understand and deal with the situation, how she developed, and then grew further. You were not interested in the lifestyle by itself (no '+sex' relationship), you happened to have a husband who was. Most stories are more or less +sex and deal with wifes who are clearly interested and enjoy the lifestyle; but you are not one of them. Interesting.

Life-and-death? Yeah... sort of. I don't want to sound like cuckold sex is the only thing that interests me: there are lots of other things I love and without which I would suffer. I can sometimes get so interested in some aspect of my work -- some research question -- that I can go a whole week without any 'kinky' thoughts. (Quasi-)Vanilla sex with my wife can also be rewarding. She is the woman I love. It's just that... that... Perhaps the best comparimister would be: imagine that you're in your late thirties, you're still a virgin, you don't especially enjoy or admire celibacy and you have no moral or religious reamisters to want it, and you have some evidence from the internet that some people somewhere are apparently happily having sex. I guess, under these circumstances, a vanilla permister might also experience a smoldering feeling of urgency...

Thanks, by the way, for offering to give my wife some pointers. I may actually accept some day! Right now, however, it looks as if, even in the best case scenario, we're still months away from that.

Blazingsun, I agree that women -- ladys, sisters -- have a tremendous effect on the development of boys; but so do also mans and brothers... It's just that Tom's idea of a 'trigger event' being the source for further sub/cuckold desires made me think of that particular incident in my younghood. I don't think my sisters were manipulating me, or pushing me around emotionally; at the time, they were too young for that (I was 5-6, they were 2-3). Later on, I took the more 'dominant' or 'leader' role in my relationship to them, and I'd guess -- though it's always hard to tell -- that I have influenced them more than they have influenced me.
I'm curious about cases of polyandry in India. Are they like the Tibetans (wife is married to husband and his brothers; older brother gets to man youngren), among which -- or so I've been told -- the wife has actually very little say in the whole situation, or does she have more freedom of choice and action?

Asehpe, thanks for checking in.

I wanted to comment on your whole "+sex" idea again.

I won't generalize to other women, but for myself, my body is a precious thing that I only plan on sharing with a very few select guys over my lifetime. This means I tend to be pretty careful about who I get close to in a physical way, and indeed the physical and emotional stuff is very intertwined for me. In my view, this would make it almost impossibly difficult for me to simply indulge in sex for the sake of sex, no matter now enticing or no matter how much I thought hubby might want me to. There's always a deeper meaning, and so the only guys who get past that hurdle are ones I want to have some sort of serious commitment to.

As a result, I'm sort of inclined to believe that my bf is more than just a sexual diversion. I wouldn't have been able to respond to him if there weren't something deeper going on. I guess my point to you is that this might be where your wife is coming from as well...perhaps as much as anything, it's a matter that she hasn't found someone where the emotional bond comes though, and perhaps if she does, you might have an easier time convincing her to go for it.

A lot of people (especially guys) talk about fidelity - but often the difference between fidelity and cheating just comes down to opportunity. I may be a bit jaded, but I like to believe I could probably get any guy I want into bed, if it were important to me. Maybe everyone has a level of temptation they can't resist...perhaps when your wife meets hers, your dreams of being cucked will unfold.

Just my two-cents worth...



Make sense?

ValGal, thanks for sharing your thoughts. They make a lot of sense.

I understand your point, and I think my wife would probably agree. (I've mentioned this forum and this thread to her, by the way; maybe she'll be reading it at some point in the future.) I don't want to generalize over people either, but it's obvious to me that the 'hotwife' and 'Mistress' that most (perhaps all?) cuck-wannabees dream of are not, despite all fantasy stories, frequent female permisterality types. In the same way that cuck-wannabees are not really a common male permisterality: most men don't want to be cucked and would be as unhappy as Richard Gere in the movie 'Unfaithful' (as I know from having tried to help several male friends who had problems with unfaithful girlfriends).

So I think I do understand my wife. She is like you, like my two sisters, like most of the female friends I've had: a normal 'vanilla' woman ('vanilla' implying of course no disrespect).

This is why, by the way, I started reading your thread. When I read your first posts about losing interest in your husband, I felt little butterflies flying in my stomach: I was suddenly afraid. You did sound like a vanilla girl trying to understand a cuckold husband. And the outcome -- you falling in love with your bf and ceasing sexual activity with your husband -- sounded like a quite reamisterable and likely outcome.

I thought: in a +sex relationship, the wife is turned on by the lifestyle; she actually is also 'kinky.' (Some other women in this forum claim to be like that; one even says she wished her husband wanted to be cucked, but he doesn't, so it remains a fantasy for her... my female analogue, you might say.)

But when the woman isn't 'kinky', you have at best a -sex relationship. If she simply is a normal vanilla girl like my wife (or like you seemed to be, I thought), then what happens is: hubby talks and talks, asks, maybe begs a little; with some luck, she agrees; then either it doesn't work, she hates it all (and they go back to square one), or then it does,
but then it's because, as you said, there's some deeper involvement between wife and lover. (In the +sex relationship that's also possible, but it's clearly more likely in the -sex relationships, because, since a wife in a -sex relationship is a normal 'vanilla' girl, the 'lover' thing is really exactly like dating and falling in love again.)

So I thought, when I started reading your thread: is this what I want? Gulp!... It might lead to her actually falling in love with someone else and leaving me. A frequent outcome in vanilla adultery; and since a -sex relationship is half vanilla... Do I want to risk that? Wouldn't it be ironic if I lost her to the lover that I fantasized for her? Talk about being hoisted by my own petard...

That's where my insecurities are now, ValGal. If I God knows how find the magic formula that changes my dear Dr. Jekyll into my dream Ms. Hyde... will Ms. Hyde then simply dump me?... Or lose all interest in me?...

Your story and your love for your husband made me think this is not a necessary outcome; but then again, maybe my wife is even more vanilla than you.

Should I then perhaps leave the whole story as a fantasy?...

But then what will happen to our sex life?... And ultimately to our happiness as a couple?

This is why I'm so interested in your experience. It gives me hope that if someday my wife should meet her level of temptation, things won't necessarily end badly. (So maybe I do have a permisteral, selfish reamister for hoping you, your bf and your hubby will live happily ever after...)

Being a cuck-wannabe certainly makes your life a bit more dangerous than usual.

Does that make sense?

And, ValGal, there's another thing... I do love my wife, and half the time I'm afraid that if I do something to change her -- even if only getting her to meet other men, in the hope that she'll find a guy who she can connect with --, I will be manipulating her, doing something dishonest.

In the first times you went dating, after all the discussion about cuckolding with your husband, did you ever feel he was manipulating you? Trying to change you into another kind of permister?

Asehpe, I know guys like you...you tend to think too much. Just follow that inner voice and things have a way of working themselves out. If it's meant to be, somehow it'll happen...if not, well, there's probably not much you can do to "power" it. Just my two-cents worth.

As for feeling "manipulated", yes, I suppose I felt some of that in the beginning. It's actually more complicated than that - or, at least it was for me. It powerd me to confront what I wanted for myself and what I was willing to do in the name of love for my hubby. Understanding where some of those boundaries were (both types) was hard for me, and I suppose I felt manipulated in the sense that if hubby didn't have his little cuckolding fetish, I wouldn't be spending so many brain cells trying to work things out.

I have to say that to me, all the difference came down to accepting the fact that I also had to be there for the other permister. I mean, he's human too, with needs and desires and issues just like everyone else. I found that the more I got to be friends with him and genuinely involved in his life, the easier this part got. Wasn't really my intention to fall in love with him, but I suppose it was probably the only way, at least for me.

Hope that explains it a bit...

ValGal, your thoughts are always interesting to read and help me to better insights into my situation and my wife's.

What a coincidence: my wife told me half an hour ago that I think too much. You're certainly not the first to tell me that, not even the tenth.

I probably do. It's my nature; it's hard for me to 'just be' (as my wife would like me to do -- she's very attached to nature and enjoys, e.g., lying down in a beautiful landscape: a lake shore, a meadow, under a tree in the woods... to just feel the landscape without conscious thought; she loves to do this, while I find it an excruciatingly difficult exercise: I either think about something or fall arelax). If you know a recipe for thinking less, let me know...

Relationships are always complicated, because in some sense we seem to be always (***ly) trying to 'get something' out of the other: a good mood, advice, a good joke, consolation, tenderness, the pleasure of being together... and there's always the possibility that the other doesn't want to give that right now. So there's always the temptation to 'manipulate', i.e. try to get 'what we want/need' from the other permister anyway (or its converse, to 'punish' the other people for not giving it, e.g. with our sadness). I don't think anybody is innocent of this temptation, or even of having acted on it.

I don't know... maybe in the end it all depends on the result. If, for instance, you feel OK with your situation now that you also love your bf, then maybe you'll think that your hubby's 'manipulation' was for the best.
If both of your guys agree (sincerely and wholehartedly), then maybe it is.
Just an idea...

As for me, for permisteral reamisters, I'd like to think I'm not a manipulator. But maybe because I think too much -- usually more than the permister I'm talking to -- I end up looking like one. That's why I really need to be extra careful in the topic of cuckolding. I don't want my wife to feel pressure from me. Not on such a delicate issue.

I will try to listen to my inner voice, as you say. Thanks for the advice...

Asehpe, I'm sorry if I sounded critical...wasn't meant that way - just meant as an observation. I think a lot of guys are like this - in the end, I suppose I see it as "self-manipulation" (no, not that kind...). It's a way to spin a situation around until you find an angle that meets some need. In my humble opinion, women have less need for this since God gave us all the tools we need to get our needs met by whatever guy we want.

And I think "getting our needs met" is a better way to think of it than "manipulation" - it carries less of a negative connotation. Getting needs met is what every living thing does, and with adult humans, you frequently run into the age-old trade-off of women surrendering sex for love, and men surrendering love for sex.

Of course, there are cases where the trade-offs are lopsided...where one side is so dominated by the other, it gets to be unfair. But I think most of the manipulation you write about is more or less a 50-50 thing. So long as both sides understand and at some level agree, it's not really manipulative. Using my own situation as an example, when I felt sort of manipulated by hubby in those early days, one of the things I had to do was take responsibility for my own actions. Yes, he manipulated me into certain things I wasn't necessarily comfortable with - but I was there by my own free choice. I could have said "no" any time I wanted, and once I accepted this sort of responsibility, I could stop seeing what he was doing as manipulative.

As for thinking less...alas, I hear there are only two good approaches. One involves learning the Zen thing from a certain priest in Tibet. The other approach is lobotomy...

And for everyone else following the thread, hubby, bf and I are continuing to pursue the idea of trying to form a happy family unit together. This weekend, I've invited my bf to come spend time with us...we'll see how it goes, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

valgal i was wondering, you say your bf and you have friends together, do they know you are married, or think you are single?

ValGal, no problem
-- you didn't sound like you were criticizing me. I didn't think that. And even if you were -- I'm a big boy, I can take it (no, not in that sense...). As I said, you're not the first to mention this to me.

Hm, maybe I've given the impression my life was full of suffering. That isn't true, even not in my love life. OK, I've had my heart broken (most people had too at least once), but it seems I've also broken a couple of hearts -- I remember three girls who wanted me but whom I did not want. So I've been in the same situation my first gf was... I like to think I've handled at least the last two (which happened after my first gf) with honesty and respect. (As for the first one, OK, I was tactless; but I was just a teenager... and teenagers have all kinds of strange and stupid ideas.)

You have a nicer take on 'manipulation' -- er, 'getting needs met'. I like it. As long as the other permister can say 'no' and stop the whole thing, it can't be that bad. I hope my wife will agree. She certainly agrees on the Zen thing -- she's quite into that stuff. She'll probably convince me to try and find out what power lies behind meditation... Or maybe we could negotiate a trade-off of manip... I mean, getting our needs met...

Let us know how it worked out in the weekend. I'll cross my fingers.

Asehpe